*coming back from my long, long walk*

<sarcasm>
hurray! something happening here! i've been actually, really, physically blocked from a blog! this is so exciting! thank you, nsshutterbug, whom this way i will never know better than as through what you write here! ;-)
</sarcasm>

frankly, i really like all your postings - NOW you're talking! never mind my deranged mind or bad english (come on, it's not THAT bad... is it?), it's THEMES that is on question here.

there's some good points. of course, themes ALWAYS existed. of course, artists and non-artists have always drawn flowers, painted christ in this or that style and built up themes just by competing with each other... or because their paying customers (mostly the church) was demanding nothing else but miserable pictures of jesus on the cross.

but what does it prove? that themes are good, because we've done them all the time? that we can't escape the "themening" of things? that we can't be wrong because 1'000'000 flies do like it, too?

it's that kind of question. and please, again, this is NOT about what you you individually like as a "theme"... believe it or not, i LIKE flowers, i LIKE freedom and tibet and shoes and cats and all that sutff, too - i just don't want to see all of this as a THEME!

it is equally true that everything has been photographed before and that it is utterly impossible to find or invent anything NEW to be picted. however, it's odd that some things (flowers - pets - sunsets, to name the top list) are tremendously more present on photoblog than, for example and without preference of these things, people's face expressions (julia's domain), car crashes or the view from the top of the himalaya. so, why is that?

the answer is obvious: flowers are EVERYWHERE. pets can't protest when you click them. sunsets don't run away. it's so CHEAP (in the meaning of inexpensive, without effort - i really don't know how to say this better in english) to make pictures of all these things. which is why everyone DOES it. which is why the whole thing is pretty pointless to show around, even if you think you picture is the prettiest thing in the world. it's not INTERESTING. it's boring.

it's like a child giving you this drawing of a house, a man standing there, a sun and a tree. it's a horrible drawing but you like it anyhow, because it's a CHILD and you just have to love these little critters, right? it's touching even more if it's your own child, hey look at our little artist, he's gonna be a picasso some say! so you cherish that wonderful drawing, even though you'd find it a piece of junk if you'd actually see it hanging in an art gallery or museum.

now, imagine, you're a kinder gardener. and you have these 200 children EVERY year drawing pictures for you. of course, each drawing individually is different... some are nicer, some just bad... but since you're a kinder gardener, you'd have to LOVE THEM ALL, right?

wrong.

kinder gardeners don't give a damn about the pictures they get... they just need something to occupy theses little rascals. ok, that was sarcastic, too, i admit. but i hope you get the picture: it's the MASS of similar things that renders them worthless. it's what happens with everything you have plenty off. a couple of good flower shots might give you an orgasm... thousands just give you a tripper.

sorry for the drastic metaphors... it's my deranged mind again...

heck, i could even live with all the flower posts here on photoblog, if they just would be what they are... flower posts. i wouldn't look at too many of them, if i could, because there so much other and more interesting things to see here. but i could live with them.

what i rant about is that every little thing we're doing here, some people are trying to drag into some "big picture"... this is what themes is to me. making things bigger by numbers, bigger as what they actually are - by making a THEME auf of stuff, it becomes a MONSTER, it's growing like crazy all over the place, infects so many blogs and in the end... well, what did it do? nothing. it just leads to nothing, no knowledge, no perception, no learning. it's just stuff put together... under a theme name.

sure, i accept if anyone else has a different opinion about this! in fact, i'm GLAD you different opinioners are WRITING that down here, finally. it always needs a trouble maker first to get things dug out. but i'm still trying to make a point of MY OPINION, naturally, which condemns themes into the deepest drawer of your photographic dark room... just using my right of freedom of speech, ok?

many thanks for all the replies!

I agreeeeeee interesting rants.... I hate I will miss some of this weekend..I will check out when I get back ...rant on !!!;)

I did enjoy reading all those comments! Very interesting!
Thanks for starting that rant, Eidea, it is nice to be able to see the opinions other bloggers have on the subject!
It is important to not get too trapped into an ego and a narrow road of opinions though. (as in, if Eidea for the next 20 years refuses to take a picture of flowers just because he slipped into showing this 'rigid' public opinion about flowers, as posted in this forum in april 2008, then it would be sad)

Can I say something about Peng She? I learned it from a message someone that I respect on this blog sent me. I don't like doing those sorts of things. But in this case... And arriving to see my dying mother in the grey and dark hospital room, with no flower in sight...

The thing about humanity and people and minds, is that miracles can happen when people put their thoughts of love (as much as they can) together.
Wouldn't this global thought towards her generate some sort of energy reaching her and it would help her in those hard moments she was living?
What happened to Peng Che?
Eidea, if I was terminally ill and the fucking french hospitals had got their ways into forbidding anyone to bring flowers because it's "unhygienic", I would be so grateful and touched, if a load of strangers started posting pictures of beautiful things for me!

But then really, if it was the case, we should all be posting flowers everyday with random names because someone of that name in the world possibly needs that flower and energy from a healthier human... Because they are suffering.
I think I am going to start a flower blog.
For all the mentally ill people in the world, and al the ones that can't express the truth that tries to come out of their hearts and is all repressed in... (ahem)


And about Tibet...But what about Zimbabwe??? Talk about injustice and nobody gives a damn!
Well, some do... But as Artbug says, I don't think it's 'useless' to post about Tibet.
Maybe someone influencial who is slightly unaware would read her blog and decide they have the means to go and help physically; and, having read yet another article about it would influence them into action?

Blablabla. Indeed. If words really have power, then here are some. May words be magic and transform themselves into what they mean... I want to say, expression!!!
Be it flowers, cats, or grot holes!

I wonder if Monet and Van gogh which I can't spell, and all those flower painters had people around them telling them how shit their work was, and how boring it was to yet again, draw flowers... !!!
Maybe flowers was what they truly believed in, in their hearts, and they thought by drawing beauty that it would inspire others to look at flowers, creating and art rather than kill each other! I better bugger off before I start again.

Ah, scientists who think they and only them own the truth...
They leave no space for anything else but their science which they can't even prove is real, sometimes...
Vive the humble human who knows that the only thing he knows is that he knows nothing...

Hey Michael, back to the original point, the real reason I made caturday was to limit myself to cat pictures once per month, since I'm tempted to post them too often.

I agree that many subjects are so easy, so available they can be potentially empty. not categorically meaningless. Nature is too great a subject to ever be exhausted, and I'm sure there are still some great pet and flower pictures to be taken. In fact, it is a particular challenge to see something with fresh eyes and rescue it from cliché.

I don't agree 'themes' are the heart of the problem. The bigger issue is not thinking critically at the editing stage. You remind me to look at my 'easy' to 'creative' ratio, and to push myself a little more. Thanks for that.

I'm back and wow Michael ,you kept it rolling... well done..
next?

once again, some interesting comments here, thanks to all!

@shangrila: i'm pretty positive that logic doesn't solve the issue. it's also not about science... themes are an annoyance of the popularity of this blog... and the easiness to put up nonsense here. it's like a party where people talk A LOT of meaningless chit chat, which is OK and doesn't matter, since when the party is over, you go home and don't remember that stuff. but here on photoblog, the themse and all their entries, they just STAY. nobody cleans them up.

@ claude: i always liked your reasoning, you're a very imaginative person. but the trouble is that WE complete stranger imagine that flowers for peng che will have this or that effect... it's just our IMAGINATION. we don't know her, her real situation, and we don't help her in reality, we just help our own imagination - once again, to be manifested on this blog. same goes for the "free tibet" nonsense. we're just imagining the power to change somebody's mind, thus having an effect on the political reality out there... but i'll bet with you a bottle of "veuve cliquot" that this won't change a dman thing... just makes all the poster fell they DID something.. and then fall asleep again.

@julia: i like the twist that your caturday actually is meant to reduce your cat picture output to one day. - BOY, you must be in serious trouble with cat pictures! ;-)
and i agree, the themes issue is partly about the missing editing scissors in our brains. in this digital world, we just splat out too much stuff in a somewhat acceptable quality and mistake this for a real contribution to hall of fame of photography.
but what you're missing is my other point: themes RUIN the value of pictures, because they press a picture into anj externally, pretty randomly defined topic pattern, they make a relation between the individual picture and someone's idea what to put up for next week. themes PRETEND to give more meaning to pictures -and in so many cases, they are even missleading. themes don't open the mind... they pre-interpret the meaning of a picture... and people that contribute are even willingly doing so. this is just sad.

@alroc: thanks for adding baby pictures to the catalogue of no-nos for photoblog - i was wondering why nobody mention them before...

Wow. This has to be the best forum contribution I have ever seen on here...

Long may the rants continue.

A while back I read on someone's blog that one thing they love about Photoblog (as opposed to some other sites, like Flickr (as well as some photography-themed message boards) is the lack of pretentiousness or photo snobbery. They were grateful for a site where we could document our lives through photos, which this site is perfect for. I'd hate to see that change.

In many of our lives we have children, pets, flowers, pretty skies, and so on. A lot of us are here for Project 365 - to chronicle a year of our life through photographs. The calendar format of this site is perfect for the project.

Other people choose to look down on common, everyday elements of life and instead have loftier goals for their photos. They demand to be held in high esteem and be given high praise for their efforts - and don't forget to use many, many words to do so!

As someone else said, the world would be a boring place if we all thought alike. Some people have lofty goals, and others are more down-to-earth. It's a shame we can't agree to disagree, or agree that we all have different tastes, without having to look down upon or insult people who believe differently.

Photoblog should be a place for everyone of all tastes, and no one should feel like a lesser person because they like to take photos of their cat.

Ok this is almost better than punching the punching bag or walking 10 miles ...so here goes ... RANT RANT!!!!!!



Michael(Eidea),

I am so tempted to say what you have on your blog looks just like a theme to me...oooooppppsss I did say it ...so if anyone cares to check it out ..then please do ..

it just has the word contest instead of theme..

I appreciate krx72 input so much!!!WELL said ..

Very interesting........Ranting eidea, looks to be like he has a photo game going, like a th..e...m..e, but...........I must be wrong because eidea dislikes themes!! Oh yea, it just looks like a theme but it really is not

LOL @ artbug & mystic1!

<sarcasm>
oh, i feel sooo debunked and ashamed! seems like you caught me right in flagranti, huh? awww, if only you knew that i have 20 more account here on photoblog which i use to clog up every themes monday with all my shutter stutter... ;-)
</sarcasm>

but even if you were right (and you're not), what would it prove? that i'm a prophet that counts nothing in the homelands? that i must be wrong because i post a "theme" on my blog, even if it's just for myself (under maybe a little bit influence of rmjanette)? that i am playing with words and you have found the deep truth about me?

you're just stalling (not even rantingly so) by fixating on ME as a person (and i'm just playing a ROLE here, advocatus diaboli), instead of saying anything substantial to the topic we're ranting about... which is THEMES THEMES THEMES - NOT ME!

but thanks for your contribution - you at least keep me going to have some fun here.

my whole intent was to keep you going... you said it was what you wanted .. themes are here to stay bad boy .....;)

Dang, thats not going to stop you!! Well I was hoping!!

In response to your original post, why apologise for something and then do it regardless?
If you feel thus, then you shouldn’t apologise for it. Saying sorry doesn’t mean the impact will be lessened in any way.

I have joined in this discussion because I can. Not because I feel motivated to, by your comments, or anyone else’s. That’s precisely the reasoning behind my joining Photoblog, and the reason why I continue to actively post my photographs on here. I am not interested in measuring up to your expectations, or anyone else’s; rather, I am interested in sharing a passion with like-minded people, and continuing to learn and develop as a photographer. I can choose to be as active as I like within this online community: if I choose to participate in a theme, then so be it. If it’s boring to you, then so be it. You have the choice to not view the posts you don’t like. You also have the choice to post this commentary on it – that’s the beauty of this site.

In my view of the world, I think it wrong to pass judgment on other people’s photography simply because it might not fit into the mold which makes others comfortable. Surely each and every person on here deserves a level of respect and consideration to be able to post and publish as many duck, flower, cat, dog, tree, sunset photos as they like.

And yes, you are entitled to your opinion and entitled to share it – but not to the detriment or disrespect of others. I found your reference to the Peng Che post in your previous rant particularly distasteful.

All of this can be taken from us in an instant. Perhaps you should learn to take these themes with a grain of salt and choose not to let them bother you. You might be all the better for it

Thanks well said Peche

words like from a priest, oh peche! ;-) thanks for this - well expressed and very calm and clear - i really like it. no sarcasm here.

i MY view of the world, however, things are not so nice as you describe. we all judge what's around us anytime, anywhere, and i don't see anything bad about it. it only becomes bad if we declare our judgment as the law that others would have to follow... did you see that happening anywhere?

yes, we all have the choice to look away and ignore what we don't want to see. it's called the head-in-the-sand principle. there's nothing bad about it, either - in fact, we have to do this every day to survive. but it's not very effective for solving any issues you might have... and i happen to have an issue with themes.

but then there are the places we would like to feel comfortable in. places, like you describe, that we feel welcome to, for what we are... and what we want to do. no questions asked. these places, and here i contradict you, don't just exist somewhere... they have to be built and made. meaningful and with a purpose. each of us has to form this community, otherwise we don't participate in it.

public places, like photoblog, tend to be like huge markets - they reflect what people have to offer and what people want. hence my former picture of a mall that has 99% flower shops and only 1% other diversity. so, given the fact that there's an overwhelming offer of flowers, sunsets, pretty babes & other baby pictures, i think it's forgivable that some of us try to push other, hmm, more exotic topics a little bit more and reflect (or try to correct, but i'm not even going there) about this phenomena... even in a provocative way.

i do not think that criticism is disrespectful if it is targeted towards a general phenomena like themes or the participation in a virtual flower action for one person (however, both are different things and i might have put them too near together - i admit that might have confused things a bit). i've never judged nor discriminated anyone personally. i'm hitting on what i believe is BEHIND personal engagement and i'm trying to open up a discussion/reflection about this. if you feel personally offended by this, i can't help it - however, i wonder why so many people are so touchy about this kind of discussion and why there is all kind of deviation from what i proposed to be the issue here.

like i tried to explain many times, to emphasize on something, a provocative style (which i've chosen purposely and clearly marked as RANT) can be a useful tool to get a discussion going - however, it's STILL meant to be a discussion about themes, not people participating or not participating in it. it sometimes HELPS to talk your heart out and get things clean... as long as you do it in a protected environment, which i very carefully have set up here.

i do like this photblog community a lot, too - and i think i have some witnesses for that in the past 1 1/2 years. however, i don't need to be friends with everyone and just like in real life, when a community grows too big, you have to start to nudge it a bit so it stays as what you like. this we ALL do more or less active with our contributions... so let mine be to "disturb" the peace a bit to gain some more active discussion about what we're here for. it's what I'M here for, at least as much as learning to make better pictures or enjoying others.

i'm sorry if that annoys the one or other person - it seems to be interesting for quite a lot, too.

thanks for your thoughts - i really wish that the discussion continues on this level.

cheers,
eidea

p.s. sorry for the long reply - if i had more time, i'd shorten it down to more essentials.

Eidea, I do see where you're coming from. However, your initial post, and some that followed, came off as very hostile - which will explain the tone of the responses you received. That may or may not have been your intent, but it is how I perceived it.

I think your idea could have been presented in a way that would have garnered more positive results - and possibly more ideas as well. For instance, if you had said, "Hey, we seem to be getting in a photographic rut with cat pictures, and flower pictures. What can we do to expand our creativity? How can we inspire photographs that are out of the ordinary?" I think you would have had a lot of positive feedback.

As for the following statement you made: "we all judge what's around us anytime, anywhere, and i don't see anything bad about it. it only becomes bad if we declare our judgment as the law that others would have to follow..."

You see, in your posts, the message I received is that you deemed flowers and cats and themes to be bad, and wanted to establish a law that others would have to follow. This is why I reacted negatively; I won't speak for anyone else.

However, if your intent is to inspire creativity, and get people to expand their photographic horizons, perhaps this can be addressed in a less confrontational manner. I am always open to new ideas, as long as I am not required to close the door on other ideas as well.

On a personal note, yes, I have been photographing a lot of flowers and birds lately. However, it's spring. The world around me is coming alive. Everything is new and green, and birds and animals are creating new life. This is something I rejoice in every day, and I celebrate it by capturing the moments digitally. When the world goes gray again this winter, I will have these photos to look back on, and give me something to look forward to again. I'm also chronicling my year, and this blog is like a virtual scrapbook - I'm just sharing it with those who care to look.